Nabila Salem, President of Revolent Group

Nabila is President of Revolent Group, which creates cloud talent that can thrive in niche technology markets. She's also on the Board of Tenth Revolution Group, the parent company of Frank Recruitment Group, Revolent Group and Rebura.

Nabila was recognised in Management Today's 35 Women Under 35 List 2019 and selected as Globant's Inspiring Executive UK in 2021. Under Nabila’s leadership, Revolent has won multiple awards including Diversity Employer of the Year at the Computing Women in Tech Excellence Awards for two consecutive years.

In this episode, Nabila shares her thoughts on:

• Leading and sustaining a truly diverse organisation
• Being empathetic as a leader, caring and listening to others
• Positive and negative role models
• Getting ahead through continuous learning
• Resilience as a leader

Transcript

Farley Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Manageable Conversations, the podcast where we speak to leaders across industry sectors. In each episode, we discover what helped them in their career, how they stay sharp, and their tips for managers to get the best from their teams. I'm Farley Thomas, the Co-Founder of Manageable. We hope this podcast inspires you to be a great leader by learning from others.

Nabila Salem: Someone once said to me that if you're not making enough mistakes, you're not aiming high enough, which makes a lot of sense, right? So if you're very comfortable, and you know everything, then you're just simply stuck rather than progressing forward. So something I'd like to improve is letting people make mistakes.

Farley Thomas: That's Nabila Salem, President of Revolent Group, and a member of the Board of its parent company, 10th Revolution Group. Under Nabila’s leadership, Revolent has won Diversity Employee of the Year at the computing Women in Tech Excellence awards for the past two years running. Revolent recruits and cross trains skilled tech professionals from diverse backgrounds before placing them at client firms worldwide. They're on a mission to tackle two major challenges facing the tech industry. First, the growing skills gap. And second, the lack of diversity. In this episode, we discuss how to inspire loyalty in your teams, empower mothers to return to the workforce and inject empathy into your leadership style. Thank you so much for joining this Manageable Conversation today.

Nabila: Good to be here. Thank you.

Farley: I have a question regarding what your work means to you.

Nabila: Oh, wow, that's a big question. My work means a lot to me, actually. And we're making a real difference to people's lives because what we're doing is we're changing their careers. You know, we're giving them exciting opportunities that they may not have considered previously. And also, we're hiring talent from all sorts of backgrounds, which is another passion of mine and means a lot to me, and that's diversity and inclusion. I could talk about this for hours, Farley. So, to me, it means that in the world we're actually making a difference, and we've created a business that is made up of 63%, Black, Asian or minority ethnic talent. There's almost 70% women in my senior leadership team. Finally, when you look at the wider business, over 30% are the first in their family to attend university, which means we're also making strides with social mobility, which is far harder to achieve.

Farley: Nabila, that sounds amazing. I'm curious, what is it about the way Revolent or the group itself is structured or the culture that creates these statistics that you just shared with me? 

Nabila: Well, Revolent Group is part of the 10th Revolution group. The 10th Revolution group has three companies within the group. FRG is our staffing business, then you have Revolent group, which creates talent, and you have Rebura, which basically enables talent and is an AWS consultancy, and there is an overarching culture of opportunity. We all have our own individual cultures, because we are different businesses. But essentially, we all believe in providing opportunities. And if you look at our board, our board is very incredibly diverse as well. So I think because it's diverse at the top, our values trickle through the businesses. That's hugely important because I believe that talent is everywhere, but opportunity is not. And that's where leaders come in and can make a real difference by providing that opportunity.

Farley: And Nabila, maybe focusing on you a little bit, how would you characterise your style as a leader?

Nabila: So I would describe myself as an empathetic leader. I believe in actually caring about your people because one thing I've learned throughout my career is if we, as leaders, don't care about our people, and actively demonstrate that we care, why and how can we expect them to care about us and what our goals are in our business? If we want them to go above and beyond, then we have to, in return, care about what's important to them? What motivates them? What can we do as a business to make them the best they can be?

Farley: There’s a lot of people in your business, Nabila, and regarding this sense of knowing what they want, I'm curious: how do you reassure yourself that you do have that sense of what people in general want in your organisation?

Nabila: To me, it's quite simple, actually, I think it's about listening, which we don't do enough, in my opinion. Often, decisions are made in boardrooms where leadership get together in a small group and sort of make those decisions. But the way we operate is we ask our employees, so we ask them what they want. And we listened, you know, where possible we implemented. A key example to this is, you know, after the pandemic, people have changed a lot. What people wanted pre-pandemic is completely different to what they want now. And it's completely different from what motivated them before, and to what motivates them now. So, we actually asked them what they wanted, and no one wanted to go back to the office full time. So why would we make anyone go back? For example, the vast majority wanted hybrid working so we implemented that. Some people wanted full time remote working, so we implemented that. So I think, to me, it's very simple. That, really is how you gain their loyalty, how you gain their commitment and ensure that they're going the extra mile. Because otherwise, if you're just making decisions without knowing what your employees want, you run the risk of actually implementing something with the best of intentions, but they don't want or care about it. So it'd be a complete waste of time. 

Farley: What's influenced how you lead, Nabila? 

Nabila: I've had all sorts of leaders throughout my career. You know, I've had what I would describe as great leaders, and I've had some not-so-great leaders. The reality is I've learned a lot from the not-so-great leaders, just as much as I have from the great leaders. So I think all of that, put together, has shaped the way I lead today. 

One of my influencers and certainly a role model, is a great friend of mine. He's the former CEO and Chairman of IBM EMEA, and his name's Larry Hirst. A long time ago, when I worked at IBM, he basically made everyone's job flexible, including his own. And that was quite rare in those days. And I thought that was fantastic. The other thing he did was, he noticed, as we have all known for decades now, that women tend to drop out of the workforce in conjunction with having babies because iften there is a maternity guilt that comes with becoming a mother. Your job becomes a lot harder, you have two jobs, so you're trying to juggle your children and raising families, and coming back to work. So what he did was for every mother that came back to work, he would give them a pay raise. And for your second child, you would benefit from another 25% pay raise. First of all, that was a fantastic way of getting more women to come back into the workforce. I mean, their costs have gone up all of a sudden. So for a lot of women, it doesn't actually make sense to come back to the workforce once you've had one or two children. He managed to turn that around. And IBM has always stood out as a thought leader and as a real diversity advocate. 

Farley: Amazing. What do you think stops more organisations from thinking similarly, Nabila? I have this sense that even today, it is a struggle for women to return. 

Nabila: Yes, it really is. Even today it is, and it comes down to the organisation and the management team and what you can do to support your people. Sometimes we put policies in place, hoping it will suit everyone. But the reality is that rarely will one policy ever sue the majority, you know, the basics can be covered by a policy. Absolutely. But some people will require different arrangements. What we do, and what I encourage my management team to do is just to listen to their employees: what do they need? It's not as simple, maybe it's part-time, but do they need flexible hours? Do they need childcare support, you know, whatever it might be, if we can support, that's when you're going to see that not only do you keep an amazing employee, or do they return to your workforce, but also they’ll be so grateful that they will go above and beyond for you. So to me, it just comes down to listening really, and accommodating where possible. I mean, nowadays, we can pretty much accommodate most things, especially now that most people are not in the office full time anymore.

Farley: If leaders do listen, and do their best to accommodate individuals' needs, what about the risk that some people feel like others are being treated in a privileged or better way? 

Nabila: I think we always run that risk. As soon as you start accommodating individuals, you will always run the risk of other individuals feeling a certain way. But the reality is, if you communicate to employees, why you're doing certain things, and why it's important to do these things, then they should understand it because those individuals will also come to a point in their life where it might not be children, but it might be they look after someone with a disability, or they have a disability themselves, or they have a need in their career that we need to accommodate. 

Everyone has different needs. During the pandemic, as you know, we had to make some very difficult decisions, all companies have had to make difficult decisions. It's all about how you communicate. That's what I've learned anyways, I think most people will understand if you communicate why you're doing certain things and the benefits to the business, the benefits to their colleagues, and the benefits to them, when the time comes that they have a need.  

Farley: Maybe slightly counter intuitively, but earlier on you characterised a very positive influence on you, and that having shaped how you yourself lead. You also gave me a hint of having also worked for not so good bosses. And I'm curious what it means for you when a leader or a manager isn't doing the best they can. Perhaps they can learn and get some tips from you and others. 

Nabula: Yes, I've worked for both definitely. From my experience specifically, it was someone who I wouldn't say wasn't doing the best they can. They probably were doing the best they can or the best they know how to do. But the reason it wasn't great leadership is because people did not really want to report to them. They didn't really want to be there. They weren't really listened to so this person would often make decisions without consulting their staff, often making the wrong decisions. It was also someone who didn't have very much empathy at all for people. Now whether this was just their character, or whether it was intentional, I don't know. However, what I learned was, is that I never want to be someone like that. Because if employees have a choice, they won't follow someone who doesn't care about them, and who literally just makes decisions that suit them or the business. 

But I am a firm believer, finally, that, you know, you can learn so much from leaders like that, too. You can learn what not to be, and that's all part of the journey. Becoming a leader is learning from people that you admire, learning from people that you don't admire. Then it’s about taking the bits that you think will form your leadership style and making it the best you can be. 

So my tip is always learn, you know, don't shut down opportunities, even a bad one is an opportunity. I remember being given an opportunity to head an HR team years and years ago. I remember thinking: I know nothing about HR, you know, why on earth would I want to do this? But actually, my boss at the time said: “Well, you've got the people that can do the work under you, what you need to do is lead them and be a great manager and be there to support them and give them the tools”. I thought okay, but I was really quite frightened. I just didn't have a background in HR, I had to learn about HR and, and things like that. It wasn't particularly a passion of mine either. But actually, I learned a lot from that opportunity. 

So I think saying yes to opportunities, and you might learn that it's not for you longer term, but you still learn. Just grab every opportunity, that would be my advice to people who are aspiring to become leaders who are maybe junior managers or middle managers. Don't stay in your box, always put your hand up to take on extra responsibility, take on new challenges, the worst that can happen is it doesn't work out. That's the key to becoming a great leader: continuous learning.

Farley: If Nabila that applies to you now as well: what are you working on? What is your learning goal?

Nabila: Sometimes, when I can see people on my team are about to make a mistake, sometimes I have the tendency to jump in and try to avoid it. Now what I've learned is, sometimes you have to let them make those mistakes, because that's how you learn. So that's something I'm certainly working on. Even if I can see that they're about to make a mistake, if it's a mistake we can afford to make, maybe let them make it, so they can actually learn. Someone once said to me that if you're not making enough mistakes, you're not aiming high enough, which makes a lot of sense, right? So if you're very comfortable, and you know everything, then you're just simply stuck rather than progressing forward. So that's something I'd like to improve: letting people make mistakes. 

Farley: Sounds like a very difficult one, Nabila, and I can relate to the difficulty there. How do you stay sharp, stay resilient and cope?

Nabila: That's a great question. Resilience is something that you learn over the years, you know, it's not something that you can read a book about, and all of a sudden you become resilient. It's a trait that you definitely harness and you nurture and you build. So how do I do it? Well, I try to break down challenges, because some challenges can seem so mammoth that actually, if you're looking at it, you know, 10 feet high, it can seem like an unsolvable task. So what I try to do is break down challenges. Also, I try not to make decisions on the spot ever. You know, if it's a big decision, if it's a big challenge, I'll sleep on it. I also take it day by day, because I think the challenges every day are different, and how you feel one day is not necessarily how you feel the day after. The other thing I tried to remember is that, you know, we're a team, there's a group of people, it's not just me. Absolutely, it can be lonely at the top sometimes, but the reality is, you know, if you've got a great team, you should rely on them. You should get them to help you make decisions. Sometimes if I'm debating a decision, I'll often get the leadership team involved and ask: “what you think”, and actually take guidance from them. Everyone has a different viewpoint. I've got my own viewpoint, but they'll often change my mind, which is brilliant. That's what they're there for.

Farley: That's fantastic Nabila and a welcome reminder that when you have a diverse team assembled, the crucial bit is to make sure they're heard and valued. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.

Nabila: You're welcome. My pleasure to be here.

Farley: If you enjoyed this Manageable Conversation, there are many other perspectives we offer our community of managers worldwide who coach and individuals from all walks of life who benefit from being coached. That's all from me. I'm Farley Thomas. Until next time!